Matt: It boggles my mind that people still don't understand that losing salmon isn't like losing Minnow Pike, mosquitoes or
hair. Salmon's role in our ecosystem is so multifaceted its loss will have micro and macro biological effects. We are loosening the pin on a link in our food chain. What happens when the salmon link is gone? (see keystone.htm)
Despite good intentions it appears that what is currently being done by all parties involved to save the salmon i.e., BPA, ACOE, bluefish, tribes, land owners, etc, it isn't working. Without returning the LSR back to free flowing and no obstructions or spending a lot of money to improve dam diversion, it seems inevitable that Idaho's wild salmon will perish.
Cdawg: The only difference between what man has done to reduce wild salmon populations on the Snake River and the Northwest tributaries and what the Taliban did on 9/11 to the US and the World Trade Center is ignorance. Unlike the attacks of 9/11, which were intentional, the decimation of wild salmon due to dams and man's ever growing need to progress technology at any cost was not. Now that we are aware of the impact of our progression, ignorance is no longer an excuse.
Powells: Is the government stocking bass/trout and other fish that eat the young salmon where they first grow in fresh water as they are doing so in the East? Fewer small salmon equal fewer adult salmon. Getting rid of fishing licenses for bass/trout will reduce their numbers in lakes and streams. The stocking of fish that eat the small salmon needs to end..........on the east coast as well.
Bill Horton of idf\&g replies:
Idaho Fish & Game (idf\&g) has stocked trout in anadromous waters for more than 50 years. That program has been reduced greatly in the last 20 years as we have evaluated the value of trout stocking in streams. Almost our entire trout stocking now occurs in lakes or reservoirs.
We stock a nominal number of rainbow trout into the upper Salmon near Stanley to provide a fishery. We had to go through a permitting process from the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) to continue to do so. Studies on trout over winter survival, and stomach analysis for food habits were conducted in the mid-1990s. We could not find trout surviving until December in those waters. While analyzing the contents of hundreds of trout caught by anglers, we found evidence of very minor fish eating habits of our stocked trout
idf\&g also stocks small number of small rainbow trout in the lower Salmon and lower Clearwater Rivers each year. This provides a fishery for anglers seeking trout in those areas during the summer, as most salmon and steelhead have headed to the ocean as smolts. Several years of sampling have shown that an exceptionally low number of fish are eaten by these trout.
NMFS has determined that our resident trout stocking program does not have a population effect on listed salmon and steelhead.
Bass were first introduced in the 1880s before Idaho was a state. idf\&g has not stocked bass directly into anadromous waters in decades. In the early 1990s idf\&g removed the minimum size limit on bass in anadromous waters, so anglers can take any size bass.
RHiggs: Frankly, before you start tearing things down on the Eastside of the State, why don't clean up your side. How many streams and how much habitat has been filled or paved over with all the development over there? After you tear down your malls, freeway, sport stadiums and 80% of your housing developments, then you can start talking about tearing down dams. After all, you won't need the power anymore.
May Eighth: How do dams effect salmon?
Government Accounting Office (GAO):
Salmon and steelhead face numerous obstacles in their efforts to complete their life cycle. For example, to migrate past dams, juvenile fish must either go through the dams' turbines, go over the dams' spillways, use the installed juvenile bypass systems, or be transported around the dams in trucks and barges. Each passage alternative has associated risks and contributes to the mortality of juvenile fish.
To return upstream to spawn, adults must locate and use the fish ladders provided at the dams. Once adults make it past the dams, they often have to spawn in habitat adversely affected by farming, mining, cattle grazing, logging, road construction, and industrial pollution.
Reservoirs formed behind the dams cause problems for both juvenile and adult passage because they slow water flows, alter river temperatures, and provide habitat for predators, all of which may result in increase mortality.
Other impacts, such as ocean conditions and snow pack levels, also affect both juvenile and adult mortality. For example, an abundant snow pack aids juvenile passage to the ocean by increasing water flows as it melts.
(Also see Survival of Downstream Migration for percentages.)
Frank: Once entering the mouth of the Columbia, what % of the adults return to their Idaho homeland to spawn?
Lance Hebdon of idf\&g replies: About 36% of adult sockeye entering the Columbia River survive to spawn.
We estimate that 95% of the sockeye which pass Bonneville Dam survive to McNary Dam. We estimate that 76% of the sockeye that pass McNary survive to Lower Granite Dam. The average survival for sockeye salmon observed at Lower Granite Dam then observed at the Stanley Basin is 50%, this number has fluctuated lower and higher, in 2000 the survival rate was closer to 70%
(see countfpc.htm & broodsto.htm).
The adult numbers generally reported on websites like the fish passage center or Columbia River DART, don't include video counts which are done at night and during the 10 minute breaks that fish counters take during the day, so its not even entirely accurate to look at numbers posted on the web and estimate a survival based on adult sockeye observed at the basin.
Make Sense Dumass:
2004 salmon season- 4 years have passed with good runs. This year the commercials quotas went up with the projections! So have the sea lions and the quotas of the commercials. Back to the comfort zone for the Politicians. Idaho Power, Bonneville power, etc. You would think the Pacific runs were in check according to the seasons at the mouth of the Columbia. As Americans we just don't learn. The Canadians put it down for 5 years not so much as a fishing rod in the water. But we get an extra 100k fish and right back to it, the economy sucks maybe it will create some more jobs, &%$$((&$hit! with a capitol $$$$$$! These fish are a resource, not a quantifiable watt of power or $$$$$. We need to get it across don't mess with the resource it is so volatile, if you could measure it by the gallon to power the country it would be over 2000$ a pound per capita. Get out of State house and look at the bank of the river governors! The resource is more valuable than gold. Don't piss on it, put it on your bandwagon and make your audience know you care in a time of need. It doesn't cost a dam thing to strengthen the water with wild fish. Pull the trollers and put something on the ballot that will save the Pacific Northwest's heritage! Sushi or No sushi, the fish are getting a raw deal. Let the #'s pass then open the dam commercial seasons, watch the voter turnout grow along with the resource! One more time, Make sense dumbass's not nonsense! By the way buy some votes and save a species during an election year, hell any efforts better than what the feds can do, what a low-grade pony show! Federal regulation, what a joke! When was the last time a salmon ran into DC without 18 wheels attached! This could be your year.
HASJ: Y'all are f####ng fruits for caring so much.
Bob Guess: Interesting topics. I grew up on the Columbia at Lyle, WA. Moved there in 1952, before dam at The Dalles was built. Fished in rapids and falls at Celilo Falls for several years with my Dad. You could almost walk across the river on backs of salmon and steelhead for couple of months each Spring. Unbelievable numbers of fish each year made it past Bonneville.
Generating hydrogen with unused water energy seems a good idea.
Why wouldn't non-peak curtailments of power be taken in fossil burning plants instead of hydropower though?
Does hydropower capacity exceed entire demand of Northwest at night?
Make Sense Dumass: More wars have been won with strength than lack of. May the salmon stay forever and their strength be known! Dams or no dams they are coming back, quit your bitching and do your part to contribute. Vote for a republican in Washington State and Oregon. Go to the polls and vote for your fish. The Lower Columbia holds the fate of these fish and Gary Locke needs to be removed not the dams! Idaho has the water to rear these fish but without good leadership in Oregon and Washington the fish will never make it back to Idaho! Dams or no dams! You want fish vote for leadership that dictates shorter commercial seasons at the mouth of the columbia! Let the fish pass that we need first then open the seasons! make sense dumass not nonsense!
Insane: What the heck is the big deal with Salmon? I mean seriously, they are coming back. they are doing fine. And the people who are saying that Wild Salmon and Hatchery Salmon are completely different, WTF? That is BS. They have the same DNA, same instincts, etc. I say that we just keep doing what we are doing and leave the matter alone.
Moon: What the hell is going on? To let a cool Redfish lake group go extinct, should be a crime! What would be a good number to return? I love to fish for kokanee, in Washington state. What is the historical high been for the return of Redfish lake?
Doug replies: Based on paleolimnological and primary productivity models the historic adult escapement to Redfish Lake was 10,000 - 35,000. The paleolimnoligical work indicated that a peak of near 35,000 occurred around the early 1700's, and ranged from ten to mid twenty thousands prior to that time. Remember, Pettit, Alturas, and Stanley lakes also had sockeye return to them. idf\&g poisoned Pettit and Stanley lakes in the late 50's to early 60's and erected passage barriers below them which basically put an end to those runs.
(current data at countfpc.htm & broodsto.htm)
Lough Neagh , Northern Ireland: Greetings to our Brothers and Sisters of THE SALMON from " The Gan Cearta Tribe " the Indigenous Native Irish Fisher People of LOUGH NEAGH . Our People have harvested and Distributed THE SALMON from Antiquity till the third of July Year 1661 . On this Day all of Our Ancient Irish Collective Fishing Rights were DELETED by the Issue of a Royal War Reward Charter to an English Lord whose Family still hold us in Legal Servitude as we still have till pay THE RENT for Permission to fish in our Forefathers Lough [ LAKE ] .We aspire to the Return of our 102,790 acres Lake .
bighippi: I am responding to your article on the shooting up of Chiloquin,
Oregon by white racists. My name is Sonja & I live in Chiloquin, I was the first person to call the police when the shooting started & (the Klamath County DA after that.)The fir tree in my yard was blown away& my 12 year old son(who is white)was shot at.The shooters truck stopped to RELOAD IN MY YARD & WHEN I LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW HE LOOKED ME IN THE FACE,& BLEW AWAY MY TREE. I was the only person to correctly identify the Shooter as an INDIAN, something that our DA, FLOYD HESCOCK & THE MEDIA chose to overlook because"oh the poor picked on Klamath Tribe" NOT!!! The SHOOTER was a WARM SPRINGS INDIAN kid who was working on a relatives ranch in Bonanza, OR. For the record the Klamath Tribe are the MOST RACIST, HATEFUL & VIOLENT PEOPLE, I have EVER MET.Living in Chiloquin is a NIGHTMARE,& the KLAMATHS ARE ALL LIARS when they say WHITE people shot up the town.I KNOW, I WAS THERE & SAW THE WHOLE THING.
Ecosystems must be kept in balance for the great mother to stay in balance. Man thinks of short term profit instead of long term gain. Dam breaching may not be the whole answer to the depletion of the salmon runs but it would certainly be a beginning to their return.
Yes, we as humans must make life changes that will be extreme for some and simple for others. Change is good!!! Education is the key to change.
Redfish Bluefish touched my heart. May your day be blessed and may your passion be held high in the saving of our earth.
"Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect."
-- Chief Seattle
FordRacing03: You are a f###ing retard and you might need to come and see the actual operations going on in these lands around here.
Enviro's need to find something else to do besides trying to mess up the economy and the wildlifes' health.
NoName:You bunny huggers need to get off the cushion and get out into the outdoors and become educated. As for dam breaching, the best thing which could come of it would be your inability to log on and preach your uneducated sheltered rhetoric.
Green Man: Question, have any of you ever thought of what you would have to give up from your life if the dams were breached? ALOT! For one flood control and all that cheap electricity, actually the cheapest in the US, The salmon are important, but there are millions of species in the world, so why would you breach the dams for such a small population, we should just keep doing what we are doing, and it is working... The dams will keep giving us the benefits what we need while we keep the salmon project going and bringing up the population.
John Rosenthal: We are all of us all the time coming together and falling a part. The point is we are not rocks. Who wants to be one anyway; impermeable, unchanging, our history already played out.
BP: What we need is a good old fashioned plague. Something on the order of the one Europe experienced during the dark days of the "Black Plague." Now there's a solution I could live (or maybe not), with. Cull the herd so to speak. As long as "we' continue consuming, producing gas guzzling SUV's regardless of poor fuel economies (proven), burning ever more scarce petroleum reserves, and coal's increasing popularity as a 'cheap' alternative to more power from hydro, we're going to see fewer attempts to breach the dams of the Northwest. Salmon? Where? When we've only read about them, and the last carcass is displayed in a museum somewhere, only then will we realize the truth about ourselves...and by then it'll be much too late. Meantime, I'll pray for the Bubonic demons to return...
Z: Are there as many numbers as there are atoms in the universe? Or . . . Are there as many centimeters between all the subatomic particles in the universe as there are numbers? and . . .would that number fit in this room? How much would it weigh? As much as a black hole? and how would we know?